Don’t make Jeff mad. You won’t like him when he’s mad.
February 3rd, 2010
Miss counting happens, even elite level athletes slip up from time to time. Jason Khalipa performs ‘Jackie’ short one pullup. Does it count? No, and he is the first one to admit it after watching the video.
I hear it from clients and I see it throughout all the classes every week. I especially heard it in the voice of Jeff tonight during the 5pm class as he taught his second class ever. (After 2 classes he’s already worked up and it came out during class) He like I clearly understand and appreciate the gravity of the situation and the affect it has on individual progress.
The real people that should read a rant about cheating range of motion, lying and rep counting probably don’t check the website so it would be of no use to go off on some long tirade here. I’ve read numerous postings online and talked to trainers from all over the world about how to fix these issues but haven’t found a perfect method as every situation is slightly different. One thing everyone needs to be reminded of from time to time is that a repetition should only be counted if the range of motion is completed. If you fail to meet the range of motion for ANY reason, it should not be counted. (This assumes you have no modifications for range of motion) Rest for a few seconds and then re-attempt the movement, whether it be the first or the last. If you ever modify a workout, especially mods that were not specifically given by me, it must be annotated on the white board. Modifications must be recorded to track progress. Take pride in your form and range of motion knowing that you completed the workout as it was designed to be completed.
The heart to heart? More buddy scored events (ie. Fight Gone Bad) where every rep can be judged by their peers and coaches? Should I film and video tape all of our classes? Who cares they are only cheating themselves? Fire them? (Since I have been teaching classes these last two years I have only had to do this twice, for other reasons) Is it more important to just tell people in the world they do CrossFit than to actually do it? If they are not here to improve their fitness then why come? Does realizing that they are not as fit as they think/want make them afraid to be honest with themselves? Should I just take their money and ignore it? Are they unsure of the standards? Should the gym have a standard as to what do to in these situations? I know if Jeff or I is ever caught intentionally cheating reps in a workout we would lose all credit as coaches and instructors.
STRENGTH/SKILL WOD
Press 5-5-3-3-3
TABATA SOMETHING ELSE
Pullups
Pushups
Situps
Squats
20 seconds of work, 10 seconds of rest. Repeat for 8 rounds of each exercise. Count total reps for score.
COMPARE TO SEPT. 28th 2009
NAME / ASSISTED PULLUPS / MOD PUSHUPS / SITUPS / SQUATS / TOTAL SCORE
| Chitra | XX | 42 | 80 | 97 | XXX | Obie | 57 | 57 | 92 | 101 | 307 | |
| Amanda | 45 | 54 | 67 | 77 | 243 | Belinda | 74 | 60 | 80 | 96 | 310 | |
| Bob | 41 | 55 | 76 | 95 | 267 | Silvia | 63 | 82 | 77 | 102 | 324 | |
| Nancy | 59 | 51 | 61 | 102 | 273 | Leila | 50 | 78 | 81 | 117 | 326 | |
| Becky | 20 | 45 | 89 | 130 | 284 | Mary | 90 | 69 | 78 | 91 | 328 | |
| Mindy | 38 | 72 | 79 | 95 | 284 | Beth | 87 | 80 | 101 | 96 | 364 | |
| Carolyn | 38 | 97 | 64 | 101 | 300 | Karen | 82 | 85 | 111 | 102 | 380 | |
| Marci | 50 | 64 | 92 | 98 | 304 | Veronica | 55 | 92 | 101 | 136 | 384 | |
| Carrie | 36 | 70 | 95 | 106 | 307 |
NAME / ASSISTED PULLUPS / RX’D PUSHUPS / SITUPS / SQUATS / TOTAL SCORE
| Jacque | 44 | 34 | 70 | 82 | 230 | Cindy | 30 | 62 | 86 | 112 | 290 | |
| Colin | 41 | 42 | 61 | 100 | 244 | Jason | 45 | 85 | 70 | 91 | 291 | |
| Les | 41 | 41 | 75 | 89 | 246 | Paul | 43 | 71 | 98 | 91 | 303 | |
| Mike La. | 44 | 56 | 72 | 80 | 252 | Lee | 60 | 72 | 76 | 103 | 311 | |
| Robert D. | 52 | 50 | 72 | 80 | 254 | Travis | 51 | 59 | 94 | 113 | 317 | |
| Allison F. | 42 | 50 | 73 | 104 | 269 | Mitch | 58 | 71 | 85 | 103 | 317 | |
| Freddy | 35 | 51 | 79 | 105 | 270 | Robert S. | 50 | 81 | 80 | 107 | 318 | |
| Rex | 45 | 58 | 70 | 99 | 272 | Alissa | 48 | 72 | 87 | 111 | 318 | |
| Mike Le. | 34 | 69 | 60 | 109 | 272 | Tony K. | 45 | 59 | 83 | 133 | 320 | |
| Avi | 35 | 72 | 78 | 101 | 276 | Dan W. | 49 | 68 | 95 | 113 | 325 | |
| Wade | 44 | 47 | 90 | 100 | 278 | Katie K. | 65 | 55 | 98 | 130 | 348 | |
| Rauli | 59 | 51 | 80 | 100 | 290 |
NAME / RX’d PULLUPS / RX’d PUSHUPS / SITUPS / SQUATS / TOTAL SCORE
| D. Green | 45 | 54 | 71 | 91 | 261 | Greg S. | 72 | 86 | 69 | 118 | 345 | |
| Ashlee | 23 | 35 | 101 | 106 | 264 | Elisha | 23 | 94 | 98 | 137 | 352 | |
| Clint | 35 | 56 | 77 | 99 | 267 | Brandon | 53 | 87 | 102 | 117 | 359 | |
| Adrian | 36 | 59 | 62 | 110 | 267 | David K. | 45 | 80 | 129 | 110 | 364 | |
| Stephen | 46 | 52 | 55 | 115 | 268 | Marc | 50 | 83 | 93 | 138 | 364 | |
| Kurt | 45 | 52 | 75 | 107 | 279 | Brian | 87 | 85 | 79 | 135 | 386 | |
| Tim L. | 42 | 75 | 80 | 95 | 292 | Carla | 50 | 59 | 122 | 158 | 389 | |
| Mike P. | 33 | 80 | 74 | 106 | 293 | Steven | 61 | 97 | 101 | 131 | 390 | |
| Mark | 33 | 62 | 96 | 107 | 298 | Mac | 81 | 93 | 83 | 142 | 399 | |
| Melvin | 51 | 56 | 83 | 108 | 298 | David T. | 53 | 100 | 85 | 163 | 401 WV | |
| Sara | 52 | 43 | 90 | 118 | 303 | Justin | 73 | 102 | 100 | 140 | 415 | |
| Shawn | 48 | 102 | 75 | 96 | 321 | Tim F. | 75 | 88 | 108 | 154 | 425 | |
| Jeanie | 50 | 80 | 83 | 113 | 326 | Yogi | 75 | 86 | 119 | 150 | 431 | |
| Jesse | 65 | 73 | 79 | 113 | 330 | Robert R. | 69 | 93 | 119 | 152 | 433 | |
| Nic C. | 70 | 79 | 80 | 109 | 338 |
Filed under: Daily WOD
February 4th, 2010 at 7:46 am
Preach brotha preach… At the end of the day you only cheat yourself when you half ass a workout. Your progress will be stunted and the weaknesses will be exposed when the “cheater” tries to go heavier, faster or harder. When I first started Crossfit I thought it was all about getting the best score no matter what but it hurts in the long run to sacrafice proprer form and technique for the mere possibility of being first. Good class Jeff; great post John.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:27 am
The best thing y’all can do for us is point out when the form is wrong so that we KNOW not to count it… i.e. keep reminding me that my pushups are awful. And that my pullups are actually bar hangs. And that I just suck in general… at life… that’s what I pay you for.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:41 am
The best workout for me is when I’m corrected on form, back off on the weight and get closer to ideal. I agree, Becky, THIS is what we pay for. When I get a decent amount of reps, like yesterday, I assume there must have been a form issue and study the videos on the crossfit website when I get home. Maybe my shoulders didn’t to back to the ground for every one of those sit ups…. Were my thighs beyond parallel for all my squats?
I feel bad that the trainers get frustrated by those who ‘fudge’. C’mon who is the real loser there? Also, those who measure themselves only against all the other times might want to re-evaluate as well.
Great post, John. Always glad to hear what you’re thinking.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:59 am
I think letting someone know that he/she isn’t meeting range of motion requirements during the wod is the way to go. Sometimes when fatigued, a crummy rep can still feel like a full ROM rep, so telling a person his/her ROM deficiency during the wod seems like a better way to drive your point than mentioning it after the wod. Also, the more specific you can be about where the ROM problems are during the wod the better (not squatting down far enough, not opening the hips up, etc).
February 4th, 2010 at 10:48 am
As I said, those that have responded are not the ones these issues are with.
Do you guys not hear the constant directing to correct range of motion/form errors? I honestly think I sound like a broken record in class some days because all I say is lower, back tight, chest up, chest to the ground, extend the arms, head through the arms… And the many more. In some cases I would quite literally need to stand next to an individual personally counting every rep for them before the ‘corrections’ would be made.
Robert- What movements are you unsure about on range of motion? I can understand where people might not be 100% comfortable with their form on complex Olympic lifting movements, but range of motion issues are more cut and dry. Especially at the high level you perform each day.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:06 am
I feel pretty good about my ROM. I was just trying to make a point that after the 200th air squat, the 201st squat that does not go all the way down can still feel like an acceptable squat to the athlete. I just wanted to offer up an opinion that correcting this during a wod is much more effective than after the wod when everything kind of runs together.
By the way, my ass muscles are sore.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:21 am
I think P3 is one of the few affiliates that posts times/scores on their website. If you take that away, do you take away any incentive to cheat? Or, what if you took away the trainers keeping times/scores as a whole? I imagine it’s tough to track times/scores/weights/modifications in classes with 20-25 people. Less time at the white board could mean more time in and around class coaching movements, technique, ROM, form, etc. I think the strongest case for posting times/scores on the internet is the ease to track progress (i.e. “compare to XX/XX/XXXX”). This could be achieved if the athletes were not only responsible for tracking their progress on Olympic lifts, etc. (on the small forms), but in other aspects, too (whether it be WOD’s, warm-ups, warm-downs, nutrition, etc.). With the clock in the gym I think this would be fairly easy to do. I know Bayou City had full-size sheets used to track progress that could be kept at Bayou City, taken home, taken to another affiliate, etc. Just an idea, and for competitive athletes, they could post their times/scores in the comments section on the website.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:25 am
Count every rep, loud and proud, just like in the military….stupid and annoying, yes, but it fixes the problem of cheating…
I’m not bent out of shape on the range of motion thing, personally, with my own limitations and injuries, I know what a REP is for my body…
February 4th, 2010 at 11:46 am
Brett – I like the idea of removing the time componet and did exactly that this past Friday. The more serious of our athletes do keep track of their progress in other ways besides the use of the website and our weight tracking cards. Via logsitall.com, WOD tracker or Iphone apps.
How does this help and or stop the person who continues to count reps for themselves when they fail to meet their individual range of motion limits? As in the past two days, the filthy fifty and tabata something else. There was little time spent at the whiteboard yet still people magically jump from rep 16 to rep 48 in less than 3 seconds?
The responsibility lies greatly I the individual to make progress, I can only ensure the method is correct. If one refuses to do what is directed, then what should be done?
February 4th, 2010 at 11:53 am
Great comments by Becky and Nancy. I also like being corrected and pushed. You’re the experts, not me. And I don’t know what I look like without mirrors or if something is not as pulled high/ squatted low as I think it is.
February 4th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Nancy- If a client does ‘fudge’ I look at it as an accident, but when it continues day to day, week to week Is when it frustrates me… More than adequate instruction and coaching was provided to the person(s) both as an individual and in group settings, then yes I do see who the real ‘loser’ is. But that’s not what I ever want to have to realize and accept nor see happen. It’s a never ending fight to better ones self. What am I do to with a real ‘loser’ at the gym?
February 4th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Lots of good action on the board today! Love it.
February 4th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Brett – And not to ignore your point about class size, since August I have only had one class that had more than 20 people. (excluding the free Saturdays) But of course that being said, let’s see how many show up tonight
February 4th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
John – You KNOW if anyone loves the yelling and correction of form, I DO! Keep it coming and KEEP ME HONEST!!!!
When I can’t get that 55 pound kettlebell over my head, I tell myself it doesn’t count and I redo it until it’s over my head. Same thing with toes to bar – I redo at least 3 or 4 each time. And even power cleans – if I can’t get it up (and believe me – I know I have crappy form on a LOT of things) And chest to the floor with pushups – I am going to keep working on this….You just have to keep yelling at me! (I love it especially when you add some expletives in there!)
I come in wanting a great workout – hands down. Yes, it’s nice to beat a couple people on time and weight because I am competitive by nature…but you are absolutely correct when we really should want great form and accurate reps – no matter how long it takes.
No half a$$ing at P3 allowed.
Keep up the great motivation…..I am truly inspired by all of your coaching and you really have a great bunch of honest clients…..However, I SWEAR that Amber, Melanie and Sara cheat quite often when they continously beat me. You should probably put some tallies on those three!
Best, Susie
February 4th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Wow – great topic, great posts.
It is my opinion that growth as a CrossFit athlete comes in stages and these stages are determined by the goals of the individual. Some CrossFit becuase they want to lose weight and improve their quality of life while others CrossFit to feel that competitive edge again. These stages are realized when the XFitter asks, will overall strength improve his/her performance? Or will running more? Or TECHNIQUE or diet? And as we all know, concentrating on all these tasks for growth purposes can be tricky while managing the expectations of life. It is the job of the individual to realize these needs on their own and to discuss these needs with his/her coach. It is the job of the Coach to help facilitate these needs for the xfitter when asked, which John does a great job on.
I constantly ask these questions. And most of the time my questions arise because I see the times of Scott M., Yogi, Mac, David U. I see myself trying to compete with the likes of Vic or Kahlipa and all the other althletes who make it to the Games. Personally I want to get better and I want to beat them all the time. However, I enjoy the fact that I can’t all the time, that each one of us, on any day can out perform the other. I have miscounted accidentally and purposely. I have failed on completing ROM in almost every WOD. But I know as an individual that the only way to get better is not to cheat…that I have to put the time in…that I must do my own research. I have learned that I cant count, so now I try to slow down some to ensure that every rep is tallied. I have decided that if the ball isnt above the line while doing wall balls, that rep never happened. I have decided that if I am not below parrallel or if my ears cant be seen on thrusters that rep doesnt count.
These are discoveries that occur when the athlete grows. It suddnely clicks in their head one day. John, keep coaching, keep yelling at us, pull us to the side and explain it to us. I can only imagine how exhausting it can be! We will get it. There are some who dont realize it…there are some (like me) who like it, who need it!
February 4th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
John,
I agree with what people are saying. I am often one of the slower people in terms of time or reps but feel that trying to do things RX(when I can) and correctly is more likely to benefit me physically and mentally. Feel free to let me know when my ROM or technique needs help at any time as I know that I could use the help. I want to do things the right way and ,as noted above, we often don’t know what we actually look like during any given movement.
Thanks for yelling at us,
Adrian
February 4th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
I don’t like the idea of you removing the times from the website. I love coming on here and comparing my times to all the studs at the gym!
I think one way you could correct or point out bad behavior is by noting it on the board or online. For example, if you are constantly correcting someone on their pull-ups because they’re not fully extending their arms put a note next to the time (no full extension). That would be nice because then people who are competitive and who are comparing times could ignore the time for that person. If I was the culprit that would fix the issue quick for me!
On the other hand if you are constantly reminding the same people to correct their form and they aren’t doing anything about it they probably just don’t care. And what are you going to do about that? You can’t change someone’s attitude. It sounds as though this is just an issue with a few people. I would just keep yelling and reminding people what they are doing wrong. Maybe stop them in the middle of their workout and make them do it correct.
On another note, your cues have especially helped me recently on the squat cleans (get UNDER the bar) and push presses (push up and not out). All of this really helps me so thanks again!
February 4th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
I want everyone to put in the time and the actual work to better themselves. We ALL suck at somethings and we need to have the perception to step back, silence our egos temporarily (it’s hard), and to come to grips with the things that need work. For some it’s just slight tweaks, but for most it’s some serious focus that needs to be placed on certain movements. It will be painful, it will be frustrating and it will take patience.
It’s not easy to admit that you have shit form on your deadlift because you can still pull a large amount of weight, but if you take the time to fix it I promise you will be able to reach and surpass that level when performing the movement correctly. It is humbling to all of us but you must realize what the end goals are and they are your goals and YOURS alone. If your squat needs to drop to 135# so the you can strengthen your abductors and hamstrings, then DO IT! If you go half way down and come half way up on push ups, fix it! Your strength gains will come quickly when you perform movements quickly. If you are still stroking your ego with half ass reps on anything to produce numbers or weight, you are wasting your time and cheating yourselves. We all show up everyday because we want to better ourselves.
Think about yourself, your goals and make yourself better everyday.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
We’re all adults here and make our own decisions in life. Doing 20 lousy reps vs 10 perfect reps is a choice that a person might make for their own reasons. Or, a person might perform lousy reps without knowing it. Or they may be so fatigued that they figure a lousy rep is better than no rep at all. It’s the job of the trainer to pay attention to what’s going on and point out any deviations from the prescribed workout and the consequences of those deviations. People who knowingly lie about their performance with the intent of seeming better than their peers just need to be taken out to the ally and horse-whipped.
February 4th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
I agree with what’s been said above, and I am living proof that “cheating” on a movement by using bad form can get you. I injured myself by going heavier than I should have because I wanted to “keep up” with those stronger than me – my form broke down, I got hurt, and I ended up out of commission for 3 months. Coming back, I am having to regain all the progress I lost and learning to stop paying attention to what others are doing. When I focus on doing it right, no matter how long it takes, those are the days when I leave the class feeling proudest.
One thing that I’ve noticed since coming back – the people who are finishing the WODs first are sticking around to cheer on those of us at the slow end of the pack, even helping pace us through the last reps of an exercise. Yeah, it still sucks to finish last, but when people are cheering you on in the spirit of helping everyone get better, it makes you feel less alone. The sense of camaraderie is part of what keeps me coming back to P3, so I hope it continues!
February 4th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Getting ROM is a daily fight. For me, it starts with the push-ups. I struggle to get ROM on these EVERY workout, and I’m still not there. Workouts like Tabata Something Else involve me failing (falling on my face) multiple, consecutive reps just to get 1 good one. I need and appreciate the yelling reminders for push-ups and for all kinds of stuff (like make sure my shoulders touch the ground on sit-ups). You guys are the experts, keep it coming.
Ditto Carla on posting times/etc, having those up there help push me — and leave no excuse for not adding a little weight or going faster.
Suz – As a regular marble counter, I’d love to have someone count my reps! Thanks for the offer. (I’ll do the same for you, especially when you’re flying through those T2B or pull-ups. You always smoke us on those!)
February 4th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Fine, I see what’s going on here. Yes, I counted a rep I shouldn’t have this morning because I couldn’t lock it out. I really did mean to do it over but it was my second to last rep and I just didn’t have it in me. I’ll do 20 burpees as punishment. Didn’t mean to start a controversy.
One idea, good, bad or old, on correcting ROM, is to have a form check day every once in awhile. Take the compitition out, keep the skill in. People can work on whatever they need to improve. Ideally, you should do this on your own, but it’s always good to have someone there who knows what they’re doing correct you.
February 4th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
I think the discussion is somewhat missing the point from what is pissing people off so much…
As we saw at Fight Gone Bad at Vic’s there are a lot of CrossFit monsters that run up there scores with half and three quarter reps and still have time to score themselves a 450, even though the trainer has them at 350.
Then there are the people that seem to be able to count by 2s and 3s and 5s when doing exercises.
If you’re going to cheat, that’s a personal perrogative but at least try and make it look close. Don’t stand between Yogi and Greg doing perfect double unders, trip over your rope a few times and run out the door…it’s embarrassing to watch…
February 4th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
Michele the punishment is actually more squat clean and jerks at or above your body weight
February 4th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
David, don’t you come on here and stifle discussion!
Good conversation… Does anyone know where I can get a 20# sledge hammer (preferably in town)? I know we’ve got a wide variety of folks out there that may be able to point me in the right direction.
February 4th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
I can see how someone could accidentally miscount 1 or 2 reps, but not sure how people’s # of reps can double w/o them noticing that their form wasn’t correct. And, yes, John, I do feel like you sometimes sound like a broken record — but I like that — it’s good to know that you are correcting us no matter how many times it takes. Keep up the yelling and I hope our peers keep up the cheering (thx for pointing that out Robin!)….the intensity of the WOD, yelling & instruction from you, cheering & competition from our peers, & the fight within ourselves is collectively what makes P3 so great. Please don’t take the times of the web!!!! I track my own data but, still the same, I love to see how we all compare and to view others’ scores. It helps me to see how far I’ve come & to also see how far I have to go. Plus, I know many of us use these shared stats as a wager tool amongst friends. For ex, Sara & I have a very (VERY!) serious bet that if I ever outdo her on a RX’d part of the workout, she has to buy me a beer. Which, as a Mom of a 3yr old girl….a night out w/ a beer & a friend to talk about how we got our as* kicked that day at P3 is very rewarding!
February 4th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
Jacque you missed out by 9 measly reps… It’s closer than you might think.
February 4th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Grainger. There is one on 610 between Fannin and Almeda and there is another one on 59 and Fountain View. I would go with the fiber glass handle…
February 4th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Geez!!!! 9 reps!!! maybe the cheating would’ve come in handy??!! (before i get ambushed — i’m just kidding). For now, I guess I’ll have trade the beer for one of Sara’s tasty Paleo Muffins!
February 4th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Thanks Brett.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Oh good, I finally beat Yogi at something and it comes on cheating discussion day.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
It would of been funnier if Nic would of won… White man always holding him back and beating him down.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
I heard Jeff smells like limburger cheese…how’s that for stifling a discussion…
February 4th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
I find the correction on form and ROM extremely helpful. It is like practicing a golf swing. It might feel right a 100 times and still be wrong until the musle memory corrected. I have probably been doing pull ups wrong for 15 years so correcting them will take some time. John, I never think you sound like a broken record unless or course it involves burpees for time.
Keep the scores on the website. I like seeing where I have been and possibly where I can get to.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Don’t worry Robert, I only win on days Mac skips, Yogi works late, David has surgery and Greg stubs his toe…
February 4th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
I think jeff left out some of my reps. I can’t catch a break. Another instance of the man trying to keep me under his thumb
February 4th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Grainger is a little expensive. If you find what you want on the internet (click on link), I can get it in will call at a 25-30% discount and you can pay cash/credit card.
February 4th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
I have another idea that I’d like to propose (seriously) – we should give permission to those we trust to call us out on ROM. There is only 1 trainer (John or Jeff), but several of us. 99% of the time I’m too focused on sucking air to notice other people’s ROM, but still, I do see it from time to time. For that matter, there have been times (many) where I’m solely focused on my ROM and still would like the perspective of an outsider. So if I ask you to check out my ROM, don’t look at me like I’m…
Related to ROM, I have a confession. After months of running all 4 corners on our laps and watching others ‘cut’ corners, I have started to cut the last corner. I have lowered my standards! But no more!!
It bugged me so much that, in typical fashion for me, I walked it off and figured that cutting that last corner saved about 3 steps (the way I cut it). Only 3 steps – and what’s the damn point if you’re going to then walk the last 10, as I’ve seen many do. I say “only” 3 steps, but it’s the whole principle being discussed here. If you want to get better, you need to do it right… every time. What’s that saying by Aristotle? “We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Go forth and be excellent. 
February 4th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Wow, great discussion! I am sure this is something every affiliate talks about, and for good reason. Everyone made good comments. I don’t see too many people in our box that intentionally cheat in a negative way. Counting and going for time has many issues.
It is hard to balance staying in “the zone” and counting reps. That is why having a counter actually helps – therefore that part of the equation is taken out.
When it comes to competing against someone else, intentionally cheating reps is a very mean thing to do. We must learn to compete with ourselves before being able to compete against others. Some days I know i have to go slow and focus on form/strength/injury prevention so my times will suffer, but so what. the time on the wall is not always the best measure. The focus should rarely be the time on the wall, but more the range of motion, balance, and execution of the WOD
It also has to do with being a new athlete. Some people starting out can’t take the hurt a WOD puts you through and quit early, which is understandable. and some people miss-count by 1 or two when doing high rep WODs.
In the end the only way someone will reach the RX top notch spots on the board is by doing things right and making every rep worth it and stand for more than just a #. focus on one skill at a time and move one. Then when a WOD comes up with the skills you are safe in, push it and get a good time.
so many good discussions lately!
February 4th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
also,
If you watched the video: Jason’s rowing technique is not one to follow. If you want to be efficient at rowing watch some of the videos on the main site (crossfit.com)
February 4th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
I was wondering about Jason’s rowing form. I can’t say it’s textbook since I don’t know rowing well enough, but I noticed that a) he posted a damn good time for 1k (averaged a 1:35 for 500m), and b) wasn’t totally sucking wind when he finished. So he has to be doing something right. I think what he was doing was pulling the equivalent of a 350# deadlift every time. So if his form isn’t great, he can afford it since his pull is so hard. Just a guess, though.
February 4th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
“Check out my ROM!” on t-shirts???
February 4th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Hey guys, for what it’s worth, ya’ll should take me as an example of what not to do…weights and times never matter (except to your bullshit ego) over form. Being gassed and wanting to finish, I compromised my form on kb swings on Monday, and as a result, I aggravated an old back injury that will set me back at least a couple of weeks.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Nice job Robert. A tabata work out is a true showcase of well rounded athleticism.
As far as the cheating discussion goes, I can only say that the wod is without a doubt the hardest part of my day and doing it consistently has made me a better person. It is a daily reminder of the constant struggle for improvement in both my personal and professional life.
So why would I cheat myself of even a little bit of that?
February 4th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Great job Robert…..after reading all of this, I’m exhausted….and am glad I was in San Diego during the WOD.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
I love Jason’s rowing technique in the video and teach the same principals for short duration rows, especially fight gone bad. It keeps the heart rate low, and the slower cadence is made up by a strong pull. Ideal for multiple movement WODs requiring a row.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
I see that John finally posted the numbers from Wednesday’s WOD. When I looked at my own results, I cringed a little. I know for a fact that I lost count on all but my squats but when John asked me for a number, I had to give him one in spite of my uncertainty.
Why am I so bad at counting? I even have trouble counting how many sets I do during the strength exercises because my attention is so focused on my form above all else while keeping myself psyched up for the next set. Also, when I become glycogen depleted, my brain goes bye-bye and I have a hard time speaking complete sentences, much less counting.
During Tabata Something Else, I kept looking at the clock and seeing numbers there that, in my fatigued brain, interfered with my counting. What’s a poor, old, fat man to do? I took my best guess and, if I had any doubt about a higher number in my mind, I chose a smaller one instead.
I can’t stand the idea of getting undue credit for a feat not accomplished. I have a hard enough time beating myself up for my many failings in life without adding the title of “Cheater” to my personal laundry list. Any potential gain I might receive from guessing high simply isn’t worth the internal conflict with my sense of morality.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:23 pm
You’re right Mac, deadlift strength and rowing is comparable but most people don’t have Khalipa strength, or at least I don’t. He can do that and I can row efficiently and get the same result (i am not in shape to do that today). John is also right. If you have the strength to do that go ahead, but for most people you will be sitting on the rower much longer and the product of rowing(aerobic strength) will be less.
Basically, I think, work hard on the run/row/situps/pushups etc/ and take your time, breathe, and focus when using weights like Olympic lifts and kettle bells.
just my two cents
February 4th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Yogi is a beast.
Anyway
Does your form suck @ss like mine?
“Embrace the suck”
I’m off to eat something now…
February 5th, 2010 at 7:40 am
There will always be alot of debate on this subject and quite franklyvits actually multiple subjects- ROM, cheating, mods needed due to injury or other issue etc…In my case I deducted 15 pu’s from my score because John called me out during a set, so I just didn’t count that set. Do I think they were all bad reps, I don’t know. I was just trying to go fast and fast and form don’t always work perfectly. That’s why I particularly like the idea of buddy scoring, especially as the class sizes r getting bigger. Even if that means a longer class. I think part of the value in p3 is the comraderie and encouragement so I’d be happy to spend 15 more minutes in the gym, to get more accurate scores. John, I do have a question about calling people out…if you know who’s “cheating,fudging,whatever” why not just not post their scores? If I got caught cheating on an exam, my score would be thrown out…why not the same at p3. I’m not saying u need to announce it, just simply have a rule that says – scores will only be posted for properly completed workouts.
February 5th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Yogi is a beast and a wise sage.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Wow, well said, Stephen. After reading your last paragraph I realized you must be Catholic like me.
February 5th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Damn, what a great discussion! This one is for the archives. John, please keep reminding us about ROM during the WOD’s. As you know, for some of us (me!) the ROM on certain movements is more difficult that others. I keep trying to improve, and appreciate you reminding me when I need it, especially in the midst of a hard WOD when my mind has switched to survival mode! Hearing your cues helps snap me back into focus! I for one will be more concsious now of my ROM on all movements, and not cutting corners (thanks Mac!)
This discussion just highlights to me once again what a great group of folks we have at P3 (time for a party?), and in Crossfit in general. The passion for excellence is unparalleled in any group I have been associated with. I agree with Yogi, the WOD in the morning makes everything else in the day seem easier, and Crossfit has affected my life in many more ways than just fitness.
Finally, if you haven’t already, check out the “Fitness is a Fulltime Pursuit” WSJ article and video posted on the Crossfir mainsite under Feb 3rd.
Ans keep posting the times please!